SoapBox

Some Advise for Handling Critics and False Accusers

1. Rejoice! Mat 5: 11. "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 13. "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
2. Give no answer (I am working on this one) Mark 14: 56. Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. 57. Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58. "We heard him say, `I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.'" 59. Yet even then their testimony did not agree. 60. Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61. But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 13.
3. Let Christ’s light shine through. Acts 6:13 They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us." 15. All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.
4. Keep Serving the Lord and let the false accusers come to their own end. For God is faithful. 2 Cor 11: 12. And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
5. Live in the freedom of Christ and do not give in to the false accuser. Gal 2: 4. [This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. 6. As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message.
6. Do not give into the meaningless chatter of your accusers. Leave them in their falsehood.1 Tim 6:20. Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21.which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
7. My final advice is this Forgive and pray for your enemies… and love them. Matt 5: 43. "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45. that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Blessings,

iggy

it was a huge mistake: pt 2

Recently I attempted to enter into the "Truth Wars" of John MacArthur with a blog that watched thoses who were slandering the emerging church... this is part two.

it was a huge mistake

A little over a month ago I started a blog to watch the watchdawgs…

Now in reflection I see it was a huge mistake….and even more I see that in truth Christian Research Network is not doing any harm…

What?

You see they are focused on watching “other” ministries and not on doing the work of Christ… they are attacking other Christians, so for the most part are leaving the lost alone…

If they were focused on the lost, then that would be harmful… since at this point they want to be the judges of their brothers and sisters in Christ they can only harm us if we let them…. And unfortunately I have let that happen over the last few months.

In trying to respond to their hatred and judgmentalism, I found that something happened… I was becoming more and more like them… and that is the last thing I ever wanted. I found that I began to mirror their hatred and pettiness and instead of responding in kindness I only responded in kind.

Jesus has more for us than to “fight” in some self declared “war”… no matter how just we think we are. This world has enough war already and it seems that if we are to reach it, we need to not reflect it but to reflect the kindness and love of Christ… to give away the Grace and Mercy and Love that was given to us by Jesus’ death on the Cross and His Resurrection. This “truth war” is not about truth, it is about self righteousness… that one’s own view is more right than the other… in that what has been forgotten is that none of us is “right”, none of us is “good”… except God and God alone.

So, I will leave them at their war and walk with my Master in His way of Peace. I will strive to forgive when I have been wronged and even more to trust that even when things are said that seem so unfair or hurtful about me or others, is nothing compared to the hurt Jesus felt as He went to the Cross… not the beatings, not the nails, but the weight of my sins as He gave atonement and forgiveness to myself and all mankind.

Jesus came into the world to save it not condemn it… and many are no longer content with the “religious” side of Christianity… I receive emails almost daily from people who have come out of religion into new Life in Christ… in that they are changed people.

If we in the emerging church see ourselves as the people who are setting things right… we need to be even more aware and careful as to how we speak and respond to others. I recently was in a correspondence with a person who was very bitter at his relatives who mocked him as he was a fundamentalist… and it seemed we were getting somewhere…yet, I apparently said something wrong and in that he has decided not to continue our conversation… which is said… and makes me a little angry that some who are “emerging” cannot set aside their own pettiness and seek to be authentic… Yet, the fool I am understands as this is basically what I just have done myself these last few months.

I have deleted quite a few posts from my blog… not that they were bad, but I viewed them as not really being more than being accusations against those who lie… I hoped to set things straight… yet in that attempt now see that all I was doing was going tit for tat and adding to the fuel of the fire of gossip and vain arguments…

I wish to no longer participate…
I was told by someone that I was not in their league, nor could wear their shoes… I do think my response to be true… I do not care to be in their league nor wear their shoes… I do not care to be like them in any way… I desire only to become more like Jesus… and that is hard enough… it would be too easy to be like some… I choose to walk in Christ.

So, I confess to my readers… I have fallen and with the help of Christ now get up… and covet your prayers in that I can move on and away from the false “war” and bring the Kingdom by kindness and Love…. To those who are searching. I ask forgiveness from those whom I may have harmed.

Sometimes I wonder if my calling in life is to play the fool so others will learn from my mistakes...

If one thinks I am "tucking tail and running", then go ahead... Actually I am pressing in deeper into Jesus and deeper into the "real" fight for truth... which is the ministry of reconciliation.

Blessings,
iggy

Prayer versus the "Truth Wars": Goodbye to Watching the Watchdawgies for Christ

Recently I attempted to enter into the "Truth Wars" of John MacArthur with a blog that watched thoses who were slandering the emerging church... this is part one.

A lot of prayer and soul searching has caused me to take another look the message of my different Blogs. My first gut feeling response was that I did not want to even do this, yet in me is a fighter, and I veiw that one should stand up against those who abuse others at times and set things right as best we can.

Yet, saying that there is a huge danger of becoming like those who we are hoping to see their error by find we are using the same tools that this world uses, or worse that we justify our actions so that we can feel "good" though we have fallen into the very error we are fighting. This is a narrow path and easy to stray from so Grace, Mercy, humility, and most of all Love must be there to keep us focused on our true calling and that is serving Jesus.

Originally I believed God to be calling out for those in the emerging church movement to ignore the critics and even more so when Johnny Mac declared the "Truth War". From the start it was clear that the accusations that were thrown out had not merit as most of us responded with, "Who are they talking about?" as they waxed on and on about what the think we think we believe...

To fight or not to fight? Is this "war" of Johnny Mac's a "Just" war or is it just his? i am seeing more and more it is the latter.

John Wimber who was the head of the Vineyard Church, believed God had told him to never give answer to his critics and for years John did not. Then some very intelligent men begged him to let them give answers and he relented. In a very intellectual way, they did very good in their rebuttals and I reference them here and on my other blog at times. Yet, something changed as my local pastor stated he noticed. Vineyard the gained an unfair reputation of being militant... mostly from the very people who mobilized their attack against Vineyard in the first place.
I see there is a direct correlation between that and now... that we have given in to playing their games... and in some way have lost a bit of ourselves... or at least that is how I feel as of lately dealing with these people.

I think that to expose them has become a waste as they tend to expose themselves as to their theology that justifies hate and judgmentalism. They cry out about homosexuality yet in doing so slander many others in the process... I have come to fully realize to argue with a person with a divisive heart, is futile as that is what feeds their ego and their sick doctrine, the more you fight them and tell them they are in error, the more they gloat as they have made you fall to their level.

I see this as wicked... and that the scripture is clear to have nothing to do with divisive men...

Now, then what to do with this blog?

Here is an email I sent to Russ N who is the other person who has been doing a great job here... I was going to just paraphrase the email but I think I will just post the whole thing as it will speak better as I wrote it from my heart at the time...

Russ,

I first off want to thank you for helping... it has been good to know I have a friend in my corner, even if we have not formally met.

I have doing a LOT of praying and soul searching... and reading of scripture... and as I said from the beginning, I never really wanted to do a blog about Ken or others... I just wanted the lies and slander to stop... and I have a tendency to defend others... to a huge fault at times.

I want you to know I am very seriously thinking of shutting it down... Maybe putting a post to explain what is going on... so these people do not think we are tucking tail and running.

I see other sites that can walk that fine line between becoming like the people one is confronting... and keeping an open ended opportunity to give away Grace and mercy... and I wonder if I am not the right person to do that as I get into the heat of the battle and sometimes lose site of the end goal... reconciliation.

I think in many ways the blog has been very good and exposing some who they really are... and that the real issue is their theology that justifies hate and judgmentalism.... yet, in all that I just get tired of confronting... and wonder if it is worth it? I mean I can expend half the energy and people find Jesus... and I am energized, or I can fight with idiots.... (beloved idiots of God) and be just worn to a frazzle... don't get me wrong, It is not that I feel the confrontation is wrong, just maybe a waste of time.

Please pray with me... I am pretty set at shutting it down as I have had a scripture run through my head from day one...

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

In some way I feel the blog is a record of wrongs... and though I will never condemn others like CRNinfo... as I see they are doing a great job, I just seem to not have this in me... It feels like this list may as well be my wrongs... and in that I have been forgiven and saved into a new life in Christ, I want to give that away instead of being like Ken Silva who is keep a list of wrongs.... as judged by his own eyes... I think I would rather give room for God to avenge than to avenge myself... I hope that makes sense.

I also was contemplating, (yep that evil purposely reading and think about scripture thing) on Romans 12: 6-21

"We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

That is were I live... and seemed to be missing this last month... I desire to have it back...

If you do not agree with me I understand... if you do I hope that as we pray we will receive wisdom to get things set back...

I am not saying you have been guilty of anything... these are the things on my heart... I have enjoyed your posts and appreciate all you have done...

I do feel guilty a bit in dragging you in all this though (grin) and then sounding so wishy washy here as I may be changing my mind.

Blessings,
iggy

I hope that IF this blog continues, that we will go in a more positive and less confronting way... the jury is still out as to if we will be here in the next week or two... though we will be deleting most of the accusational posts in the next day or so if not sooner.

I appreciate Russ and know he has a post rearing to go as God has been working in and on his heart also... It will be a major blessings that he will share.

My only desire is to serve Christ in a manner that gives Him glory. I do not see that fighting other brothers in Christ a productive way to spend my time as there are many going to hell every minute I spend in an unproductive argument. I mean think about it... if a person is divisive at heart... do you think arguing will change his mind... no... only one thing will and that is prayer...

So, please let us all prayer for each other and for myself and Russ, mostly though for those who have declared "war" and made themselves our enemies... which I have never considered that of them... The Body of Christ has but one enemy and that is Satan... so if Johnny Mac declares "war" on his brothers... OK I will stop, but there is no war here anymore....

There is an Indian Chief named Chief Joseph... and incredible man well educated in both his worlds... as the USA decide to round up all the tribes and put them on reservations, Chief Joseph gathered his people and ran with them... men, women children, old and young sick and well and for a long time kept them out of the hands of the Cavalry who was chasing them... the warriors would do distraction and Joseph would lead the people safely away... this went on for a time and frustrated the US military, that a savage was outsmarting them...

It seemed a victory as Chief Joseph had only about 50 miles to get to Canada... and he was finally caught. Yet, unlike other tribes that went out in a blaze of glory, Joseph saw all his people went through and made a discussion...

His quote sums up my feelings here.

"I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed. Looking Glass is dead. Toohulhulsote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led the young men is dead. It is cold and we have no blankets. The little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are--perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children and see how many I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my chiefs. I am tired. My heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."

I am not saying that we lost... but I think that fighting only leads to more loss on our side... no matter how many we ever "take down" (I mean that only in correction grin) there will be another... and another... and so on... in fact I think Falwell is taking a stand against Calvinists as we speak... so there is a war... and I will let the fundamentalist fight it out amongst themselves... I think I would rather focus on my people and bring those that have been harmed back to health and search for the lost lambs to bring them to the Great Shepherd. I only thank God that this is not like the original reformation where then did kill those they deem heretics.

Blessings,
iggy

Recently I attempted to enter into the "Truth Wars" of John MacArthur with a blog that watched thoses who were slandering the emerging church... this is part one.

A lot of prayer and soul searching has caused me to take another look the message of my different Blogs. My first gut feeling response was that I did not want to even do this, yet in me is a fighter, and I veiw that one should stand up against those who abuse others at times and set things right as best we can.

Yet, saying that there is a huge danger of becoming like those who we are hoping to see their error by find we are using the same tools that this world uses, or worse that we justify our actions so that we can feel "good" though we have fallen into the very error we are fighting. This is a narrow path and easy to stray from so Grace, Mercy, humility, and most of all Love must be there to keep us focused on our true calling and that is serving Jesus.

Originally I believed God to be calling out for those in the emerging church movement to ignore the critics and even more so when Johnny Mac declared the "Truth War". From the start it was clear that the accusations that were thrown out had not merit as most of us responded with, "Who are they talking about?" as they waxed on and on about what the think we think we believe...

To fight or not to fight? Is this "war" of Johnny Mac's a "Just" war or is it just his? i am seeing more and more it is the latter.

John Wimber who was the head of the Vineyard Church, believed God had told him to never give answer to his critics and for years John did not. Then some very intelligent men begged him to let them give answers and he relented. In a very intellectual way, they did very good in their rebuttals and I reference them here and on my other blog at times. Yet, something changed as my local pastor stated he noticed. Vineyard the gained an unfair reputation of being militant... mostly from the very people who mobilized their attack against Vineyard in the first place.
I see there is a direct correlation between that and now... that we have given in to playing their games... and in some way have lost a bit of ourselves... or at least that is how I feel as of lately dealing with these people.

I think that to expose them has become a waste as they tend to expose themselves as to their theology that justifies hate and judgmentalism. They cry out about homosexuality yet in doing so slander many others in the process... I have come to fully realize to argue with a person with a divisive heart, is futile as that is what feeds their ego and their sick doctrine, the more you fight them and tell them they are in error, the more they gloat as they have made you fall to their level.

I see this as wicked... and that the scripture is clear to have nothing to do with divisive men...

Now, then what to do with this blog?

Here is an email I sent to Russ N who is the other person who has been doing a great job here... I was going to just paraphrase the email but I think I will just post the whole thing as it will speak better as I wrote it from my heart at the time...

Russ,

I first off want to thank you for helping... it has been good to know I have a friend in my corner, even if we have not formally met.

I have doing a LOT of praying and soul searching... and reading of scripture... and as I said from the beginning, I never really wanted to do a blog about Ken or others... I just wanted the lies and slander to stop... and I have a tendency to defend others... to a huge fault at times.

I want you to know I am very seriously thinking of shutting it down... Maybe putting a post to explain what is going on... so these people do not think we are tucking tail and running.

I see other sites that can walk that fine line between becoming like the people one is confronting... and keeping an open ended opportunity to give away Grace and mercy... and I wonder if I am not the right person to do that as I get into the heat of the battle and sometimes lose site of the end goal... reconciliation.

I think in many ways the blog has been very good and exposing some who they really are... and that the real issue is their theology that justifies hate and judgmentalism.... yet, in all that I just get tired of confronting... and wonder if it is worth it? I mean I can expend half the energy and people find Jesus... and I am energized, or I can fight with idiots.... (beloved idiots of God) and be just worn to a frazzle... don't get me wrong, It is not that I feel the confrontation is wrong, just maybe a waste of time.

Please pray with me... I am pretty set at shutting it down as I have had a scripture run through my head from day one...

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

In some way I feel the blog is a record of wrongs... and though I will never condemn others like CRNinfo... as I see they are doing a great job, I just seem to not have this in me... It feels like this list may as well be my wrongs... and in that I have been forgiven and saved into a new life in Christ, I want to give that away instead of being like Ken Silva who is keep a list of wrongs.... as judged by his own eyes... I think I would rather give room for God to avenge than to avenge myself... I hope that makes sense.

I also was contemplating, (yep that evil purposely reading and think about scripture thing) on Romans 12: 6-21

"We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

That is were I live... and seemed to be missing this last month... I desire to have it back...

If you do not agree with me I understand... if you do I hope that as we pray we will receive wisdom to get things set back...

I am not saying you have been guilty of anything... these are the things on my heart... I have enjoyed your posts and appreciate all you have done...

I do feel guilty a bit in dragging you in all this though (grin) and then sounding so wishy washy here as I may be changing my mind.

Blessings,
iggy

I hope that IF this blog continues, that we will go in a more positive and less confronting way... the jury is still out as to if we will be here in the next week or two... though we will be deleting most of the accusational posts in the next day or so if not sooner.

I appreciate Russ and know he has a post rearing to go as God has been working in and on his heart also... It will be a major blessings that he will share.

My only desire is to serve Christ in a manner that gives Him glory. I do not see that fighting other brothers in Christ a productive way to spend my time as there are many going to hell every minute I spend in an unproductive argument. I mean think about it... if a person is divisive at heart... do you think arguing will change his mind... no... only one thing will and that is prayer...

So, please let us all prayer for each other and for myself and Russ, mostly though for those who have declared "war" and made themselves our enemies... which I have never considered that of them... The Body of Christ has but one enemy and that is Satan... so if Johnny Mac declares "war" on his brothers... OK I will stop, but there is no war here anymore....

There is an Indian Chief named Chief Joseph... and incredible man well educated in both his worlds... as the USA decide to round up all the tribes and put them on reservations, Chief Joseph gathered his people and ran with them... men, women children, old and young sick and well and for a long time kept them out of the hands of the Cavalry who was chasing them... the warriors would do distraction and Joseph would lead the people safely away... this went on for a time and frustrated the US military, that a savage was outsmarting them...

It seemed a victory as Chief Joseph had only about 50 miles to get to Canada... and he was finally caught. Yet, unlike other tribes that went out in a blaze of glory, Joseph saw all his people went through and made a discussion...

His quote sums up my feelings here.

"I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed. Looking Glass is dead. Toohulhulsote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led the young men is dead. It is cold and we have no blankets. The little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are--perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children and see how many I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my chiefs. I am tired. My heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."

I am not saying that we lost... but I think that fighting only leads to more loss on our side... no matter how many we ever "take down" (I mean that only in correction grin) there will be another... and another... and so on... in fact I think Falwell is taking a stand against Calvinists as we speak... so there is a war... and I will let the fundamentalist fight it out amongst themselves... I think I would rather focus on my people and bring those that have been harmed back to health and search for the lost lambs to bring them to the Great Shepherd. I only thank God that this is not like the original reformation where then did kill those they deem heretics.

Blessings,
iggy

Missing The Point...

Faith and Law...

Our faith looks nothing like our law in this country. Notice the ruling that came down yesterday in a
New England state outlawing Intelligent Design being taught in schools. The law that punished Tookie with death happened to be the right thing even if it was 25 yrs late according to the voters in CA.

We live in a country where the law protects everyone from infringement of our basic right to pursue happiness, be free, and worship who we want how we want in most cases. The constitution was much more about freedom than it was about faith. It was written by men of faith who knew that freedom was a dynamic of Christ but sought to protect their right to worship along with the pagans right to worship. That's my point. The law was not put in place to affect a Christian purpose of giving a sinner time to repent; it was put in place to protect people from crime etc. Ministry to Tookie is our job, not the laws job, thank goodness.

If you want the 10 commandments put up in public school then be prepared to have the Wicca doctrine and the Mormon doctrine and the Catholic doctrine.....just kidding, I love Catholics but man do some southerners think they're the devil. There again is my issue with how Christians think the law should work, but in fact, if we get our way then you open a floodgate of other stuff you DON'T want being condoned by public institutions. I believe in fighting for the laws you want such as abortion being outlawed but thinking that the law should be a tool of Christianity alone is NOT the answer. I get the same sentiment when Jesus said "Give to Caesar blah blah blah" Caesar’s government and law was far from Christian but Jesus said to give your money to it anyway.

Ok, so what's the spread on the Panthers game Saturday?

XOXOX
Mark

Tookie

I would have posted this earlier but I couldn't find the link to post. Eric has kindly shown me the way...
As for Tookie, it's a very simple issue in my perspective. In our system of laws and accountability of behavior, the matter is clear. He committed the murders, was convicted and has run out his string of appeals. I don't see where faith comes into the equation. I'm a devout believer and at least as passionate about truth as the next guy. What I don't understand in the current discussion, well, recently current discussion of offering clemency to Tookie is this... At what point does the law become interpretive "after" the punishment has been doled out? We cannot open justice to the dynamic of personal feelings and emotions. Although our circuit court judges are doing a fair job just this. It's the same syndrome of relativism without any absolutes, without accountability for actions. Our law is not a discussion of our faith. And God seems to have no problem with capital punishment even in the New Testament. Don't lie about how much you make on the sale of a field.

"power to the people"

Mark

Tookie, Paul and Stephen

First off I want to take the topic off  of the specifics of  “Tookie”, as both side allege that their view is right.

I am in some ways going to cut across the grain of thought in some people in the Emergent movement.

I do not believe in killing someone. I refer to myself as a modified pacifist. I will not go out of my way to harm someone. I choose peace over anything even if it involves self-sacrifice. Yet, with that being said I will defend those who may be harmed around me.

Scenario:

This is often over used, yet to me still stands. If someone breaks into my house to kill my family, I will defend them unto my own death, even if it means I must kill the other person…. You may ask how is that being a pacifist? Well, that is the modified part.

If someone who may harm me approaches me, I will try my hardest to not harm that person and see what God is doing in the midst of the confrontation.

I have done a crime. I must do the time.

We talk about community and values in Emergent often. Yet, we must realize that society as a whole create values in community that may include the death penalty for a crime. I may agree or disagree, and this country gives us the right to choice either way. It also gives us the choice to pursue changing the current values of the community concerning issues like the death penalty.

I am sad by this, but I do believe some people are a blight to society, not that they are not loved by God, nor that they cannot be saved, but that they have reached a point that like an abused animal that lashes out, they do the same. Too often it is blamed on not having a proper environment to grow, but to me I think that is mostly rubbish, as one must make choices in life. To be caught up in wrong choices that go against the community values or the national values give no one right to complain if they are caught and justice is served.

If I am caught speeding and I get a ticket, I made the choice to take the chance to get the ticket. The law was there, it has no regards to whether I disregard it or not.

In the case of a man who lived a life of hardcore crime and then changes as he is in prison for years, does nothing to eliminate the crime committed. To kill someone still leaves that person… dead. The person may have changed in prison, but the penalty as decided by our national values may be carried out with expectation to crimes were parole is an option. This is also a value we have as we have the process of appeals to give criminals a fair chance to bring their case for freedom up before a board to decide if they have been rehabilitated.

Do I think one can have a sentence changed from death to life without parole? Yes, and maybe in Tookie’s case that should have been so.

Again, I may or may not agree with the national values, but I myself if being against the death penalty, do not see this man’s blood on my hands. I see he took a life and his life was in his own hands by that choice.

There will be a time when society will say to be a Christian is a crime. In that the death penalty may be carried out. I have made the choice to accept Jesus and so if that is a crime I will lose my head. Don’t laugh, in many Arab countries this is now happening. It is not to far of a stretch to see it here someday.

We are to forgive. To forgive does not always equate with our past being gone and done away with. A person who smokes heavily comes to Christ; the gives up smoking may still get cancer. It was not God’s fault, not does it diminish God’s forgiveness and salvation. It is just a simple fact of life in this world.

Am I comfortable that a person is executed? No, but not because I am against the death penalty. It is because a soul may have been lost to hell. Yet, to turn to God for salvation is their choice, and I cannot nor anyone can make that choice for that person.

If one makes choices that get them the death penalty, and change fro the better, we should praise God, but not expect that they do not pay the debt to society. One must remember that though Paul was a murderer by proxy of condoning the stoning of Stephen, it was within that communities values to stone who they thought blasphemers. To note also that it was illegal to carry out a death sentence because they were under Roman rule and to do so would place their law over Caesar’s… but I digress. Paul was within his rights as a Pharisee to persecute and judge Stephen, right or wrong. I believe Paul never really got over the stigma of the murder of Stephen. It seemed to haunt him and many in the beginning of ministry would wonder if he were genuine or a spy.

Though the Tookie case is interesting, we have a case of a triple murder here in Montana were a man murder the father, then took a small boy and his mother to a motel and murdered them. He is requesting that nothing hinders his execution, as he desires to die. The question still is with as many child molesters and sex offenders released on parole for good behavior while locked up, do we really want someone who murdered once on purpose to walk our streets and possibly murder again?

Changed or not, I think that if God wants them free from prison they will be freed, if not God will use them where they are and if they are true believers they will be content with that. As Paul said in Galatians 3: 26.  "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27.  for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29.  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Blessings,

iggy

Clemency: a christian response

Has anyone followed the recent execution of "Tookie" Williams?
If you've followed it at all you find out that he killed four individuals in a robbery when he was a member of the "crips" gang which he helped start over 20 years ago. Since his imprisonment, he has been a strong voice in the anti-gang movement, and has actually co-authored a number of children's books on the subject.

If one believes in capital punishment, one quickly begins to think that an execution of such a man may be undeserved because of a seeming "redemption" of his character and behavior. This in-turn made me think that he deserved clemency from the Gov. of California.

The reason that Gov. Schwarzenager gave for not granting clemency to Tookie rested on the fact that Tookie maintained his innocence of the crime of which he was accused until the end, and he never showed "remorse".

I paid attention to my own responses to what was being argued over this case, both emotional and reasonable and the grey matter in between. What I found was that I was quickly moved to feel compassion for Tookie, based on what I felt was a reasonable level of "penence" and good deeds.

But that felt like a canker sore in my mouth. I kept coming back to it. In God's mercy, "penence" and good deeds don't earn anything. We all rest on Jesus wholly, for atonement.

THE QUESTION?
How then do we respond to a situation like this? What is the christian response? What is the loving response?
It may be unavoidable to bring up the theological debate about capital punishment, but if at all possible, I wonder how we might dialog about our responses as people called to the nations, to share love and the good news?

I would love some feedback as I wander through these woods.

Matthew

Rambling thoughts on a tough question

What is the emerging Church? Why do we need it? These are questions that have been bouncing around my head for the last few days, so I will take a stab at what I think the answers are. I think before I can define the Emergent Church, I must first define what the Church is. In Galatians 3:26-29 it states "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus, And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." To me this is the description of who makes up the Church. Through faith in Christ Jesus we become sons of God. Through baptism into Christ, we become part of the body of Christ. If we belong to Christ we then have complete access to the promises given to the heirs of Abraham. In 'The Cost of Discipleship' Dietrich Bonhoeffer laid out the clear and simple description of what constitutes the Church, when he wrote "The Church is one man. All who are baptized are "one in Christ". The Church is "Man", the "New Man". The Church is created as the new man through Christ's death on the cross.......Adam was the first man to be created after the image of the creator, but he forfeited that image at the fall. Now a second man, a last Adam, is created after the divine image - Jesus Christ. Hence the man is both Christ and the Church. Christ is the new humanity in the new man. Christ is the New Church." So with that rather long explanation, we come to the conclusion, that the Church is Christ and those who are part of the body Christ become one through Christ, and form the Church. So now having defined the Church as Christ, I will approach the question of what is the emerging Church and why do we need it. I see the Emergent Church as a group of Post Moderns, who have decided to become Christ-like, and are pursuing him with a crazy passion. Since they are part of the body of Christ, then the Emergent Church should be viewed as Christ emerging. That, I think should be the object of every Church movement around the world, to create an environment where Christ emerges to the world. I am not going to use this forum as an opportunity to bash main stream religion but I will leave you with a quote from Bono that I think sums up what the Emergent movement is not. He was quoted in a interview with the Toledo Blade as saying "Religion, to me, is almost like when God leaves and people devise a set of rules to fill the space,". Hang in there and keep emerging.

Big Pappa

...and why do we need it?

I believe that every generation of believers comes to a point of "making the faith of our fathers, OUR faith". We see that in youth ministry all the time, as adolescents who have been raised in church settings come to a point as emerging adults where they realize that depending on the faith (church) they've been raised in isn't enough -- it has to be THEIR choice to believe, trust in, and follow Jesus Christ.

How many times do youth pastors (I've been involved in youth ministry in some capacity for over 20 years now) hear testimonies about "accepting Jesus when I was little, but recently it just became more 'real' and I had to choose to follow God as an adult"? I've lost track, personally, because this is a very, very common experience for youth who were raised in the church, when they hit junior and senior high school.

The emerging church, let me be clear, should not be viewed as adolescent (immature); but it is a growing percentage of Christians who are wondering if contemporary Christianity has bought too much into culture, and allowed culture to influence the Gospel message. The emergent church is hard to pin down for any cohesive doctrinal statement simply because there are people in almost every denomination going through this same sifting process of trying to weed out cultural Christianity from the real, raw Gospel that Jesus (and the later apostles who wrote Scripture, like Paul) preached.

Many of these "emergent" people are not leaving their denominations, so the expression of what is "emerging" can be quite different in various settings; Darryl Dash pastors a Baptist Church in Toronto (http://www.richview.org/), Pernell Goodyear leads The Freeway (http://www.frwy.ca/) which is part of the Salvation Army, Gerry Milchalski pastors Soul Sanctuary (http://www.soulsanctuary.ca/) as part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, Frank Emmanuel is pastor of Freedom Vineyard (http://www3.sympatico.ca/femanuel/freedom/index.html) which is part of the Association of Vineyard Churches of Canada, and Jordon Cooper is pastor of Lakeland Community Church (http://lakelandchurch.blogspot.com/) which is a Free Methodist congregation. And that's just some of my fellow Canadians that I'm personally aware of. The list is, of course, much larger worldwide.

Why do we need an "emerging church"? The same reason that every generation has to "own" the faith of their fathers. The same reason that there has been a constant historical cycle of renewal-consolidation-complacency-renewal since the early church. The same reason why Jesus was having to call people back to a pure faith as early as the writing to the seven churches of Revelation (chapters 2 & 3). The Church is constantly in need of Renewal -- a touch from the Spirit, definitely, but also a renewal of our understanding of the Faith and also the expression for Faith that our church structures allow (or disallow).

Robbymac

What is the emergent church?

What is the emergent church?

First off I need to give some definitions of words I use and how they may be a bit different from what others may use.

I view the church as never once been intended to be an institution. On a personal level, I believe, about the time of Constantine, the Nicolaitans somehow corrupted the “church” (used in a generic form here). Their corruption came about by setting up a hierarchical and authoritarian institution.

This set up a separation of priests and laity. In Hebrews it talks of Jesus being our high priest and believers being part of the priesthood of Melchizedek. There is to be no one between a believer and Jesus for only He is our mediator.

In all this I am not anti Catholic nor do I see that believers involved in what I would consider an institution as less my brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe the faithful have served God in many capacities, from kings to slaves. We are called to be priests wherever God has sent us.

Now, when broken down from the Greek, the word Church means (I wont go into all the techy stuff here), “The Called out ones” or “The chosen ones called out to perfection”. In the Book of Revelation Jesus sends letters to believers at 7 different churches, which would read, “To the Called out Ones who gather in…” I beleive this is true even today. For example, I am “One of the called out ones to perfection who gather in Billings.” I would add my ministry’s name to be more specific as to the location.

Many modern churches under the traditional authority and institutional model say this is what they believe, which they may; yet I do not see it in practice.

Now, I am finally to the question. “What is the emergent church?”

Again, as you read each person’s posts we will have a little different idea and approach to this question. Many people, as big papa pointed out to me, have never even heard of the catch phrase we have put on ourselves. It is associated with being Postmodern, which by the way is another topic altogether. Suffice it to say for me personally I am a postmodern only because I live in the postmodern age. Yet, as a believer I hold to the truth as taught in the Bible.

Emergence is defined as “Newly formed or just coming into prominence; emergent: emerging markets; the emerging states of Africa.”

To be emerging is defined as: NOUN: 

1. The act or process of emerging.

2. A superficial outgrowth of plant tissue, such as the prickle of a rose.

So in a way, we are something coming into prominence that is in the process of emerging.

Or let me use this illustration:

Jesus is the vine and we are the branches… as we take in the Life of Christ in us, we bear fruit. Yet, without the Life of Christ flowing in us we are not a true living thing. The fruit emerges only if the Life is in the branch, which is attached to the Vine.

This leads me to what I believe the church really is. The church is a living organism. It is the literal Body of the Living Jesus. We are placed into this body, as we become believers, much as God placed Adam in the Garden after God formed Adam. We are a new creation in Christ. We are all connected as One in the Body of Christ here on earth. We are the literal Body of Jesus Himself on this Planet.

I see that as the modern churches age has ended, whether moderns accept it or not, changes are coming. People are less responsive to institutions and authority. They are looking for what I call The Real, who is the person of Jesus.

When people seek The Real they will find authentic and true worship that is by the power of the Holy Spirit and Truth.

The emergent church is a budding flower that has risen out to the carnage of modern thought. In case one thinks I am being a bit strong, I also believe we of emergent thought will leave our own carnage if we are not careful. Yet we have the advantage of being young as an age. With this we can move forward and make mistakes and experiment, grow and change things as we hear the Spirit guide us.

I believe we are God’s Garden, to use an illustration. He has planted a new generation who is seeking The Real. Most do not even know His Name nor that this is even a person. We of emergent thought are not out to change things, but rather to start afresh like a budding plant in God’s Garden. The Bible points out that one may plant, another water, yet it is God who makes things grow. God is planting, now, visions in the heart of believers to reach this postmodern/post church generation. If we listen, I believe many will come to Jesus. As we grow, I believe God will guide and help us in His Way. I know some weeds will spout out, yet that is God’s problem and He will deal with it.

I see that the new churches will have an organic and natural feel and style to them. It will not be easily marketed. The Fellowship that I am part of developing in Billings does not have a traditional Sunday sermon, for the people are the sermon. We gather to fellowship, worship, and study and discuss the Bible. We are not afraid of discussing anything and I personally enjoy people who challenge the norm in thought.

There was a time when the Eucharist table was in the front of the building. When the protestants came about they moved the table and set in its place an alter. I see that it is time to move the table not in front but in the center of our fellowship. We gather for that reason… to fellowship and break bread together as a symbol of being the Body of Christ Jesus on Earth.

Blessings,

iggy

What is the emerging church and why do we need it?

The first topic for the SoapBox is "What is the emerging church and why do we need it." There are 14 authors from all over the world that will be the weighing in on a wide array of topics in the coming weeks. Please join in the discussion via comments, and please feel free to ask the group any questions that you might have.